Leaders on Leadership featuring Dr. Jonathan Green, President of Susquehanna University

Episode Transcript

Jay Lemons:

Hello and thank you for listening. I’m Jay Lemons. Welcome to Leaders on Leadership, brought to you by Academic Search and the American Academic Leadership Institute.

The purpose of our podcast is to share the stories of the people and the forces that have shaped leaders in higher education, and to learn more about their thoughts on leadership in the Academy.

Today’s a really rare and special treat for me to have someone who I am so grateful to and very proud of, and that is Dr. Jonathan Green. The personal point of connectivity is that Jonathan is the 15th president of Susquehanna University, where, of course, I served as its 14th president. Jonathan has served since I passed the baton to him in 2017, the 1st of July.

By that way of background, Jonathan is a renaissance man in many ways. He’s a composer, he’s truly a scholar, a higher ed leader, and he’s guided Susquehanna through a period of strategic growth centered on student success, academic innovation, and institutional sustainability, during a time of extraordinary challenge for all institutions of higher learning, including COVID, and inclusive of the patch of space that we’re going through with challenging demographic populations out there, as well as the fall, in some ways, for too many Americans of American higher education from a place of honor and grace, and certainly in a period of time where our relationship with government is in some ways being challenged and redefined.

So as I have already said, Jonathan has done way more than stand in place. Under his leadership, the university has launched Susquehanna 2026, a comprehensive strategic plan that was developed through broad campus collaboration. He’s completed the most successful fundraising campaign in institutional history, raising $185 million through the Give Rise campaign, and introduced the distinctive Be Impossible to Ignore brand for the campus.

His presidency has expanded access through important initiatives such as the American Talent Initiative, TRIO Student Support Services, and the REACH Scholars Program, while also strengthening student resources for every single student through the establishment and the creation of Lisa Ryan and Clark Burke Hawk Hub, a facility that is important in the lives of every student that sits in the heart of our campus center.

Jonathan has advanced academic innovation through the creation of an innovation center, the BUILD Collaborative, and a makerspace, while expanding the Freshwater Institute and deepening partnerships with organizations such as the Chesapeake Conservancy.

He’s also overseeing significant campus investments, including a new downtown center, a 54 acre retreat center that connects academic and community life, and is in the midst of a renovation and expansion of the Degenstein Campus Center, which is the heart of campus life at Susquehanna.

Jonathan is a national leader, as I’ve already mentioned. He serves as the chair of the board of the Annapolis Group and holds leadership roles with NAICU, ACUP, and the All In President’s Council. In 2022, he was appointed by Governor Tom Wolfe to the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency Board.

As I’ve already mentioned, Jonathan is an accomplished musician and composer and has authored more than 160 musical works and eight scholarly books. He holds a doctor of music of arts degree in conducting and began his academic career in faculty and senior leadership roles at Illinois Wesleyan University and at Sweetbriar College.

Jonathan, forgive me for that long introduction, but you’ve done a lot, young man, so it’s great to have you here.

Jonathan Green:

It’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Jay Lemons:

Well, really appreciate your being able to spend time, as I said before we began recording, in the midst of a board week. So it’s an important week in the life of the university and an important one. And so, thanks for making a respite.

As I’ve shared with you, one of our goals is really to ask leaders to think back and to reflect, consider their own pathways to leadership, with a hope that others may be inspired. And Jonathan, I want to invite you to share your story with our listeners, and talk about some of the people, events, and opportunities that really have forged the person that you are, and the leader that you’ve become as your journey in higher education unfolded. And I want you to go back as far as you would like and speak as long as you would wish.

Jonathan Green:

As you know, any one of us that ends up having the privilege of holding these kinds of positions is there by virtue of at least 50% good luck. And most of that good luck is in people that look out for us, and under certain circumstances also encourage us to think of ourselves very differently from how we see ourselves.

Thinking about that question, one of the first people that pops into mind is my undergraduate advisor, who at the end of my first year of college, tapped me to manage the college choir. Meant I had an office in the School of Music, which was conveniently next door to him. And it ended up creating a much different relationship, and helped inspire me to want to be engaged in the Academy in ways that I wouldn’t have thought of. But also gave me a chance to sort of see everything that goes on behind the scenes, making concerts work and pulling tours together, negotiating contracts with bus companies and all those sorts of things.

And being given that opportunity as a teenager was pretty extraordinary.

Jay Lemons:

It was. It strikes me, that had to have been an unusual appointment.

Jonathan Green:

Well, it was unusual that it was at the end of my freshman year as opposed to the end of my junior year.

Jay Lemons:

Rising sophomore. Yeah. And the person who accepts that job lives up to being a sophomore, a wise fool.

Jonathan Green:

Indeed. And I certainly leaned into the, more and more than the sophomore for a while. And then I had the good fortune when I went to the University of Massachusetts for my master’s degree, which I did directly. I was given a teaching assistantship that was a five college teaching assistantship. So I was on all five campuses, which meant that I was regularly engaged with faculty, administration, and students at four really good and four very different residential liberal arts colleges, which, as a kid that went to a state teacher’s college, it was a whole new world.

That’s just one of those sort of serendipitous things because there were 40 different assistantships they could have given me and there’s no logical reason why I got the one that I did, but being able to spend time at Mount Holyoke and Smith and Hampshire and Amherst, on a pretty regular basis, opened my eyes to a kind of educational experience that was different from the ones that I had had.

And it certainly helped me to appreciate the benefits of our kind of higher education, which led to an opportunity to do a sabbatical replacement while I was finishing my master’s at Williams. I’m not exactly sure why they were willing to let me in there as young as I was. Maybe they didn’t realize how young I was, but it really sort of sealed the deal for me that the American liberal arts college is where I was meant to spend my life and my career.

Years later, when I was a faculty member at Sweetbriar, the equivalent of the provost’s secretary told him when he was looking for a new associate dean that he needed to pick me. And a year later, she was my secretary.

But, I think the thing I’m grateful for is that I pretty soon realized she was the wisest person on campus. And I’m glad that Steve recognized her wisdom too, because it allowed me to become engaged in some really deeply involved ways with the campus younger and earlier that I might’ve been able to.

And the great thing about her was there was, there never a moment where she didn’t make sure that you were experiencing humility. I mean, in the very best ways. Maybe the least pretentious person I ever met and always be a good reminder of the people that really do the work are the ones that usually don’t get the credit for it. And I was thinking even when you were reading my introduction, it’s a list of things other people have done that I’ve been the lucky person to be able to praise them and maybe coordinate the bits and pieces, but the work is done by so many other people who deserve more credit.And Katherine really provided me with that.

And then I had a really wonderful experience, and this ties into the work that you’re doing with ALLI, which was Lynn and I participated in the second cohort of the CIC’s program on vocation of the presidency. And the two big questions, one was, “Do you actually believe you’re called to do that work? And if the answer is yes, to what kind of institution are you called?”

At least that second question was something that I hadn’t really thought about. And it isn’t even just the idea of you want to be working at a liberal arts institution, but even there’s a lot of diversity even among our institutions. And so, that was quite valuable. And you mentioned you being the 14th president of Susquehanna, one of the mentors in that program was the 13th president of Susquehanna, Joel Cunningham.

Jay Lemons:

Exactly right. Yeah.

Jonathan Green:

Joel and Trudy were already at another institution, but it was clear that they had never stopped being in love with Susquehanna. So when I got the call to consider being your successor, that was a really strong affirmation that it was a place that I wanted to look. And here we are.

Jay Lemons:

And here we are. There’s so many things that you said that sparked for me that I want to spend a moment on. And first off, I appreciate the humble nature of much of what you said. And I happen to believe it is true about the collective works of our colleagues, that really are what move institutions forward.

But the people who connect the bits and bots are also really, really important and set the tone. And I want to go back to your comments about Katherine at Sweetbriar. Really appreciate that. And it rings so powerfully true in the course that I have taught several times, called The Academic Novel. We use Moo as one of our texts. And you’ll recall, if you have read that book, that the provost secretary, and in the day that Jane Smiley wrote it, that was the operative work title, was the most powerful person on the campus. And the people who know the most often are the keepers of institutional memory in critical ways.

So thank you for acknowledging the critical role that, especially staff and long-serving staff play, because they are the unsung heroines and heroes of our institutions.

Jonathan Green:

But it’s funny when you mentioned what they were called at the time, I would occasionally slip and refer to Katherine by her official title, which was my office manager. And she would say, “I’m your secretary and don’t you forget it. I keep your secret.”

Jay Lemons:

Old school to be sure.

Jonathan Green:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jay Lemons:

The other thing that I wanted to just maybe draw out of you a little bit and maybe go back. Your undergraduate institution is SUNY Fredonia, a place with a really distinguished academic record in its own right, especially in the field of music. How did you end up choosing SUNY Fredonia? And then again, we share a whole lot of things in a way, Jonathan, in that we both are children of school people, but it’s interesting to have you say, “I discovered when I went to UMass, a sort of institution I really didn’t know existed.” Talk a little bit about how you chose Fredonia and a little bit of your art growing up.

Jonathan Green:

Well, it was a little bit of a happy accident. And actually for a framework a few years ago, I was fortunate enough to be back in Fredonia to receive an award. And in my remarks, I said, typically when someone says, “If it weren’t for my alma mater, I wouldn’t be here.” In my case, it isn’t hyperbole because my parents met at Fredonia. So were it not for Fredonia, I truly would not be here.

But they had gone to school there in the 50s and I grew up about 20 minutes away from there and had a high opinion of the School of Music, but I assumed that I would go off to a city and enroll in a conservatory, but I went to college early. And so, I made a deal with my parents that they would let me, before I was in my majority, go be a residential student at a college if it weren’t too far away, and that I’d spend my first year at Fredonia and then I could transfer someplace else.

And that undergraduate advisor, I discovered pretty quickly, was an extraordinary music teacher, a great voice professor and many of my faculty members, I was learning, more and more, that they were of a much higher caliber than I’d assumed was available in my own backyard. And so, I knew that I wanted to spend at least four years with David to get as much as I could from him, and fortunately went and studied at Chautauqua for the next couple of summers where my classmates were from Eastman and Julliard in New England. And I was finding out that I was getting just as strong a training and had just as strong professors as they did.

But in some ways, and I’m delighted that I made the choices I did, but I’m not sure that I really knew that there were other choices.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah. Yeah. We sit in very privileged seats, and I think about all the young people out there who may not have known, or as I’m going to call her our chair of the board, Sidney Gates, often says, “A select view of every generation need to have the opportunity to work and learn in this hand-tooled environment that is the residential American liberal arts college.” It’s so true. So, somehow we got to find ways to reach more of those kids in the future.

Jonathan Green:

And you mentioned the American Talent Initiative a little while ago, and the mission of that organization goes back to so many young people, who are from financially challenged backgrounds, are often guided by guidance counselors and people that they know to go to an institution that those advisors believe is sort of tailored for the low income local kid. And, if they’re intellectually precocious, the likelihood of them persisting is really low, because they’re not challenged and they’re not engaged.

The kid that picks a neighborhood technical school who would thrive at Stanford, and doesn’t know that Stanford will help him or her make it possible for that education, may find themselves out of school in a semester or two. And part of that is creating opportunities for students to find institutions where they’re going to flourish. And then, part of our job is to figure out how to make it possible for them to be able to have access to our institutions.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you for those reflections. And I can’t help but find myself wanting to go just one other place. And I know that there are many, many more examples than I will raise here, but I’m curious about what there is about being a composer, a conductor, a leader of musical ensembles of a wide variety that translates to leadership in higher education, because I think about certainly the most tenured leader in American higher education is Leonard Boston, right?

Jonathan Green:

Right.

Jay Lemons:

And then I think about Benjamin Zander and the contributions he has made, that still may be my favorite leadership book. I’d love for you to reflect on what is it about those acts and tasks and skills that translates to leadership in the academy.

Jonathan Green:

Actually, I wrote an article about two decades ago about the parallels then of being an academic dean and being an orchestra conductor. And I think maybe the one other parallel organization is a hospital, where a significant percentage of your employees are exceedingly expert in some very specific thing, whether it’s your Shakespeare scholar or your second oboe player or your cardiologist.

One of the things that is interesting is that I think that, as academic leaders and as conductors, your job is to try to figure out how to put all the pieces together in the most harmonious way possible, to inspire some people to exceed what they believe their capacity is. And, no matter how much the principal clarinetist and the fluke player don’t like playing together, figuring out how to get them in tune.

The one thing that I would note though is that when I was a provost, all of those experts probably thought they could do a better job than I could, just like most people at an orchestra think they can do a better job than the person on the podium. The difference was that every day the faculty members would say, “I’m so glad I don’t have your job.” And I never ever heard somebody in an orchestra say they were so glad they didn’t have my job. And the thing that’s crazy about it is, I mean, as you know, these are incredibly rewarding jobs.

Jay Lemons:

Absolutely. Thank you for that. I feel like I’m on a one person crusade, to sort of recapture the beauty of the word “good,” and I want to hear you talk about what in your mind makes a good leader. And by that, I don’t mean grade B, I mean virtuous, effective, and successful.

Jonathan Green:

I think one thing is, that you need to absolutely be passionate about the mission of the organization you’re leading. If the mission of the institution is not your personal creed, you’re not going to be good. You’re sure not going to be great.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah.

Jonathan Green:

But if the organization has a set of goals and a mission about which you feel deeply passionate, I think that’s half of the formula. And the other two components are being analytical, because in many ways, our biggest responsibility often is triaging. And that goes back to the conducting metaphor, that my principal conducting teacher in lessons would just stop me and say, “Who needs you most right now?” And it was sort of the idea that, if you could get the violas right in that spot, six other things would fall into place and be right, and knowing what the linchpin moment was.

And in our organizations, often figuring out what are the one or two things that, if you get them right, will make six or seven other things fall into place. That takes some careful analysis and being able to look deeply into complex structures.

Then lastly, you darn well better be a compassionate person, because our organizations are people. And if we think that it’s easy to get distracted by all the buildings, and partly because they’re often our biggest headaches, but fundamentally, a university is a collective of human beings.

Jay Lemons:

Indeed. As you’ve already said, we don’t lead alone. I believe in that, the strand of the presidential tapestry, the president and the presidency, the team. When you’re thinking about creating your team, what do you look for in those leaders who are a part of helping you to lead the enterprise forward?

Jonathan Green:

Again, the commitment to the mission is really important. And I think that part of the process of getting to know prospective team members, if you realize that somebody has a fire in their belly to make sure that a kid that deserves to be here, gets here no matter… That we figure out every way of doing it, that’s a person that’s going to succeed in the context of the larger team.

I think it’s important also to observe some of the chemistry between team members, and that doesn’t necessarily mean homogeneity. One of the things that I have really appreciated is, that typically in any leadership team that I’ve been involved in whatever role, there are a couple of square pegs that are sometimes the most valuable, because they’re the only ones that sort of see the thing that nobody else can see.

I think Catherine Phillips was the dean of the business school at Columbia a number of years ago that had written an article in Scientific American about why diversity makes us stronger. And part of it is that four different perspectives on something are much more likely to help you find the right answer, but also identify the wrong answers. And four homogeneous people are going to share a blind spot.

And so, that team of rivals concept that Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote about Lincoln’s cabinet, there’s some real value there. And the one thing, they may have been a team of rivals, but there were certain goals that they were all passionate about achieving.

Jay Lemons:

Amen. Amen. A part of our audience are people who are in our AALI programs. And I always love to ask our guests to offer advice to those who are aspiring to leadership or who find themselves suddenly in new leadership roles.

Jonathan Green:

One thing I think is really important is, thinking deeply about why you believe you want the opportunity, and what you’re hoping to be able to do. Because as we see more and more in terms of the declining longevity of people in leadership roles in higher education, there are people that get eaten up by the work. And I think in most cases that is probably an indicator that the motivations for the tasks themselves may not be as deeply rooted in the individual.

I remember I had a terrible boss at one institution, and became famously terrible. And at one point I confronted that individual and said, “It’s clear you don’t respect this institution. Why did you take this job?” And the immediate response was, “It paid better than my last job.” It wasn’t good for the college and it wasn’t ultimately good for that individual either.

And then I think also looking at what you think your must-haves are and why before you look at a single opportunity. I mean, sometimes opportunities fall in our laps. You get tapped to fill in for someone and the next thing you know, you’re the permanent person.

But what are the things about an institution that if you were outlining that you needed to have, for me, a residential liberal arts institution, division three athletics, those are our core. And for me, also an institution that has a strong historic commitment to providing access for economically challenged students. Because those are students in an institution that need me, and some others, it may not matter who’s in the role.

So I think thinking through those things and really thinking deeply about whether deep down in your soul you believe them to be true, is an important part before you even start looking at the opportunities, because then the right opportunities will be resonant and the shiny, pretty thing won’t distract you from where you’re really meant to be.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you very much. I want to move us into lightning round. A little shorter question.

Jonathan Green:

How many points are there for each of these?

Jay Lemons:

Yeah, 10 points. Who’s had the most influence on you?

Jonathan Green:

Oh, my wife.

Jay Lemons:

Say more. Not going to get away with that.

Jonathan Green:

Well, I mean, everyone that knows, there’s no human being ever married up more than I did. I think almost every joy of my life in some way is tied to her. Thinking about the framework of leadership, one of the things that we found compelling together about this kind of an opportunity was that for us it’s a job we can do together.

Jay Lemons:

Yes.

Jonathan Green:

I mean, as you know, Lynn is deeply involved with the life of the university. We’re on the road together doing engagement. So for us in the context of a full partnership, this ended up being an ideal way to be able to do that work together.

Jay Lemons:

Yeah. No question. Lynn is tirelessly in support of Susquehanna and the work that you both share. Thank you. Wonderful to have you raise her up. What book has had the greatest influence on you?

Jonathan Green:

Wow. It’s usually whichever one I’m reading at that particular moment. And I think actually in some ways it might be Plato’s Republic, just in terms of setting a tone for me early on, about how we think about how groups of people work together, how they don’t work together, the ways in which we see ourselves in the world versus the ways in which we are actually in the world, and how do we reconcile those differences.

Recently, I read a book by, I think it’s John Gaddis, called On Grand Strategy that uses Lincoln a lot, but also is back with the Phoenicians, and in the middle of war and peace, and the ways in which strategies end up being effective versus the ways in which they can be defeating. One of his early metaphors is that Lincoln realized that if he wanted to get from point A to point B, that if he walked in a straight line, he probably would drown in a swamp, and that you had to be ready to sort of turn and twist and adapt. And the flexibility was what made him a successful leader, much more than the straight arrow determination of reaching a goal.

Jay Lemons:

Thank you. I appreciate that. You have a fondest memory of your undergraduate experience?

Jonathan Green:

Yeah, the first day Lynn Buck kissed me.

Jay Lemons:

There you go.

Jonathan Green:

Sorry, everything else is-

Jay Lemons:

How far into your experience?

Jonathan Green:

It was October 5th of my junior year.

Jay Lemons:

There you go.

Jonathan Green:

Yeah.

Jay Lemons:

So I can go back to the very day, November the 20th, 1982. I don’t remember whether she kissed me or not, but it was the very first date I had with Marsha. So we have got those dates etched in our minds.

Jonathan Green:

I was only 11 months later.

Jay Lemons:

There you go. Hey, Jonathan, if you hadn’t worked in higher education, is there another calling that you could have imagined making your own?

Jonathan Green:

Well, I mean, that’s kind of the cool thing about being an academic is that I have a discipline that isn’t education, that I’ve been fortunate enough to share it with students, and it’s provided me an opportunity to play an executive role at an institution, but I’d probably be conducting a regional orchestra someplace.

And in retrospect, I feel like what I’m doing is more rewarding in terms of… I mean, as you know, handing a diploma to a student is… I mean, there’s just nothing like it. There’s also nothing like a transcendent moment in the middle of a Mozart symphony, but it’s not the same.

Jay Lemons:

Wow. Wow. What’s your favorite campus tradition at a place that you’ve attended or served?

Jonathan Green:

It’s here. And I bet you maybe pick the same one, but Thanksgiving dinner on this campus is really something for anyone that hasn’t been on our campus. This is now 43rd or 44th year in a row where students come together in groups for a family style Thanksgiving dinner the week before Thanksgiving. We do three seatings, so that we can accommodate them all, and faculty and staff serve the meal.

And it’s a really great opportunity, I think, a great reminder for us about the really wonderful young people that choose this as their alma mater, because they couldn’t be more charming and more grateful.

Jay Lemons:

Oh, you’re so right. It gives me shivers just thinking about, it is a night where you are reminded that you are a part of a larger community, and one that is filled with an unusual number of people, truly grateful for and love Susquehanna.

If I were asked that question, it’d be a hard one. We have a lot of hallowed traditions at Susquehanna, and it’s one of those things that makes it a special place. But I need to pivot to one of our traditions on Leaders on Leadership is that we like to close by asking our guests to share with our listeners the distinctive qualities, or if you will, the organizational DNA that makes Susquehanna University so very special to you and to those that you serve.

Jonathan Green:

I think one of the things that’s unusual about this institution is, the day we opened our doors, half of our students were on full need-based scholarships in 1858. I’ve yet to find any parallel in American higher education that we were conceived as an institution that was trying to eliminate economic barriers to meritorious students to get a quality education.

It also was an institution that was both training people for careers and providing a liberal arts education, concurrently, over a century before that ended up being a model that most other places. So it really is part of our DNA that we’re about building skills along with a rich intellectual core. Every student who graduates from this institution has not just studied something that they’ve done the discipline.

They’ve gotten their hands dirty. Every one of them has done a capstone experience that’s guided by a faculty member, so they truly have internalized and owned the things that they’ve done.

And we’re one of just a handful of institutions in the country where every student has a study away experience. And of that small handful, we’re the only ones where there’s a course before and after to prepare a student to make the most of the opportunity.

And then, to think about where they fit into the world as a cosmopolitan human being, as a result of what they’ve done and seen in that experience. And I think as a result, the kids that walk across the stage and get those diplomas have had a full person education that really is without parallel anywhere in the world.

Jay Lemons:

Well, I can only second that and say amen. I want to just take this moment to thank you, Jonathan, for joining us on Leaders on Leadership. Really grateful to you and appreciate your willingness to share time and insights and wisdom about leadership with us. And I want to just give you a chance to offer any final parting words to our listeners.

Jonathan Green:

It’s hard to imagine more rewarding work than what we do. Whether it’s creating opportunities for faculty and staff members to excel and grow, every day we figure out a way to help a student receive a degree, that in many cases that they and their families never thought was possible. It’s hard to imagine anything that’s more rewarding and fulfilling than that.

And so, I think for anyone who’s listening, who has skills to bring to the table to help manifest those goals, it truly is the Lord’s work and it’s tremendously rewarding. And so, if you’ve got the talent, you’ll be rewarded in immeasurable ways in making those things happen.

Jay Lemons:

Listeners, we welcome your suggestions and thoughts for leaders we should feature in upcoming segments. You can send those suggestions to leadershippodcast@academicsearch.org.

You can find our podcasts wherever you find your podcasts. It’s also available on the Academic Search website.

Leaders on Leadership is brought to you by Academic Search and the American Academic Leadership Institute. Together, our mission is to support colleges and universities during times of transition, and through leadership development activities that serve current and future generations of leaders in the Academy.

Jonathan, again, thank you. It’s been such a special pleasure to have this time to feature you as a part of our podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Jonathan Green:

Thank you. You have a great day.

Jay Lemons:

You too.